<div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div>Hi,<br><br></div>I don't want to promote more of this pointless talk over the mailing list, but I feel that I have to clarify some points.<br><br></div><div>First of all I hope that WBMv9 has been<span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"> <span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-">a pleasant experience to</span> <span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-">all participants. We, from the local organization, have made an enormous effort to provide a good and well organized event.<br></span></span></div><div><br></div>Secondly,
Filipe was just trying to provide the invoices for people that may have
forgotten to ask for them at the hostel. Still he has no legal
obligation in doing that. Legally speaking each person is responsible to
require its own invoice.<br><br></div>Now, just quoting CMSV:<br>"(...)in Portugal, invoices/receipts must (mandatory) be<br>
issued with the person's ID tax number (número de contribuinte) which<br>
ensures that taxes paid are are not kept in someone else pockets.<br>
Business are obligated to do this otherwise they can and do keep the tax<br>
money we pay in their pockets."<br><br></div>And, once more, CMSV's
argument is NOT true. As a matter of fact an invoice can be issued
WITHOUT the consumer's tax number. You (CMSV) may not be familiar with
the concept of final consumer, but I will clarify. For every commercial
transaction must be issued an invoice, even without the consumer's tax
ID. In this cases the seller issues the invoice using the generic tax ID
999999999, which is know as the "Final Consumer". This generic tax ID
is mostly used in minor transactions and was created to ensure that even
when the consumer doesn't require the invoice, or don't provide its tax
ID, the invoice is issued, and the resulting tax money reverts to the government. <br>Believe
me, we have a very effective tax collection system, which goes to the
point that each and every POS system is somehow connected the the
Portuguese Tax Authority, either in online/continuous mode or in offline
mode (mandatory monthly reports).<br><div><div><br></div><div>So, contrarily to what Mr. CMSV is <span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-alt-edited">implying, no one from the hostel or from other entity will illegally retain the tax money.<br><br></span></span></div><div><span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-alt-edited">And now, lets go straight to the point.<br><br></span></span></div><div><span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-alt-edited">Mr. CMSV has been following an <span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-">immature</span></span>
and in some cases aggressive approach, since the preparation for the
WBMv9. That bad attitude has become publicly evident in all the previous
emails, with all those accusations and personal attacks, and comes from the fact that he has not assimilated the real
sense of the WBM community events. The WBM events are made for the community and
by the <span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-alt-edited">community, without taking any personal or institutional advantages.<br><br>In
my personal opinion CMSV's purpose, from the beginning, was to catch
the attention to its own and one-man project: wirelesspt. Besides being
an interesting project, for which I give him all the credit, WBM can not
be about a single and one-man project, and that fact leaded to his
frustration, which has resulted in <span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-">unsubstantiated and serious accusations.</span></span><br><br></span></span></span></span></div><div><span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-alt-edited"><span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-alt-edited">But we are all grown people that must learn to live with our frustrations, without starting to argue on false premises.<br></span></span></span></span></div><div><span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-alt-edited"><span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-alt-edited"><br></span></span></span></span></div><div><span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-alt-edited"><span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-alt-edited">Carlos M. Sanches Leocádio<br></span></span></span></span></div><div><span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-alt-edited"><span id="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-result_box" class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-short_text" lang="en"><span class="inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-inbox-alt-edited">(one of the "meal tickets" guys - and trust me, its very unlikely that you find other guy with the same name as mine)</span></span></span></span></div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">Em qua, 20 de jul de 2016 às 11:45, Simon Wunderlich <<a href="mailto:sw@simonwunderlich.de">sw@simonwunderlich.de</a>> escreveu:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Miguel,<br>
<br>
as I've recommended multiple times to you: Could you please contact Filipe and<br>
work out those things personally? You've been avoiding each opportunity to<br>
discuss problems during the event with him, and even after the event. I think<br>
it would be best if you discuss with him directly and work things out. If you<br>
can't work it out with him (and please DO TRY FIRST), I'm happy to mediate -<br>
with BOTH parties, not behind backs. But we (as the participants/mailing list<br>
members) don't have anything to do with those conflicts.<br>
<br>
We (as the participants) do not know about Portugese tax laws, and I don't see<br>
why we should care. As far as I reviewed the process, there wasn't anything<br>
shady at all. Did you review the registration process yourself? Did you talk<br>
to the Hostel managers? Did you read the financial reports? Unless you do,<br>
please refrain from making these accusations, especially on personal level -<br>
it is just rude. Without proper backing of those accusations, all you spread<br>
here is FUD [1] or even conspiracy theories, which hurt not only Filipe but<br>
our event as a whole. And even if you find irregularities, its not the<br>
battlemesh mailing list to judge, but the responsible Portugese authorities.<br>
<br>
Again, please know that I won't tolerate this kind of behavior on the mailing<br>
list, but I'm happy to help and mediate to solve those problems.<br>
<br>
Cheers,<br>
Simon<br>
<br>
[1] <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt</a><br>
<br>
<br>
On Wednesday 20 July 2016 02:46:42 cmsv wrote:<br>
> Hello Ferry,<br>
><br>
> On 07/20/2016 01:35 AM, Ferry Huberts wrote:<br>
> > Can you please chill out a bit.<br>
><br>
> I am.<br>
><br>
> > You are coming down very hard on Philipe and it is totally uncalled for.<br>
> ><br>
> > Yes, maybe your points are valid, that still does not justify you tone.<br>
><br>
> There is also something else you do not know about Mr Teixeira and I<br>
> have a good reason to speak this way specially when he tried to twist my<br>
> words in the second email.<br>
><br>
> > Philipe did a great job at WBM, a really great job.<br>
><br>
> Credit where credit is due and he did do quite some good work, but also<br>
> some shady things that most people are not aware.<br>
><br>
> > And maybe he made a mistake here with the invoices.<br>
> > So What?<br>
> ><br>
> > He is responsible and trying to correct it by reaching out to everyone,<br>
> > and you are coming down hard on him. Kind of unfair don't you think?<br>
><br>
> No i do not think. In time something else it will be explained about Mr<br>
> Teixeira but that is another topic and I will issue a formal explanation<br>
> in regards to it.<br>
><br>
> > And on top of that, you just could have asked for an invoice yourself.<br>
> > I personally did and received it just fine.<br>
><br>
> I am not talking about the invoices for me but for the the participants.<br>
><br>
> > IMHO you own Philipe an apology.<br>
><br>
> I do not. He owes me and all of us one for something he did during the<br>
> events. Something you do not know and that was the reason why I<br>
> abandoned the events on the third day and the embarrassment he caused.<br>
><br>
> > BTW, coming down hard on someone is very impolite, and that is<br>
> > aggrevated by not using your real name in your emails. If you are trying<br>
> > to make a point, then this is not the way.<br>
><br>
> You are VERY incorrect.<br>
> My emails are digitally signed with my pgp key which has my name and<br>
> even has my picture and the links provided on my email provide not only<br>
> my identification as well as much more information about me.<br>
><br>
> Do you have a better way to identify me online ?<br>
> Perhaps you should wait for more information before further comments.<br>
> There are also lot of Ferry Huberts on google but just one cmsv@....<br>
> I am very VERY identifiable.<br>
><br>
> Please lets stay on topic:<br>
> As for this TOPIC, in Portugal, invoices/receipts must (mandatory) be<br>
> issued with the person's ID tax number (número de contribuinte) which<br>
> ensures that taxes paid are are not kept in someone else pockets.<br>
> Business are obligated to do this otherwise they can and do keep the tax<br>
> money we pay in their pockets.<br>
><br>
> Simultaneously, those receipt numbers are automatically sent to a<br>
> government contest which gives to the winer big prizes such as high end<br>
> cars (audi) and moneys up to 40.000€ per winer.<br>
><br>
> When we buy something in Portugal it gets to be in your Tax profile and<br>
> we have proof we paid for it, where when and to who. The contest is an<br>
> extra benefit for the tax payer.<br>
><br>
> keeping receipts/invoices and not sending the tax info by the company<br>
> not only is convenient for those who keep it as well as is punishable by<br>
> law.<br>
><br>
> > On 19/07/16 23:10, cmsv wrote:<br>
> >> Lets get a few things straight Mr Teixeira,<br>
> >><br>
> >> - Do not try to make me look like I am blaming the participants with my<br>
> >> 2 second email. ONCE again I am NOT.<br>
> >><br>
> >> - Do not blame wbmv9 participants for not having received the invoice<br>
> >> and making them feel responsible because they "forgot".<br>
> >> Over 95% of the participants are not Portuguese and not familiar with<br>
> >> the portuguese system. Do not make this their fault! Portuguese law is<br>
> >> quite clear. We do not need to remember asking for invoices. We must to<br>
> >> be provided with one without questions.<br>
> >><br>
> >> - You also state that you do not see anyone irresponsible here. Really ?<br>
> >> You were in charge of asking for the money for payments. Not the<br>
> >> hostels. YOU kept sending emails to everyone about the payments while<br>
> >> you took care of that part of the organization. For that you take all<br>
> >> responsibility and credit but after that, you spend over 2 months silent<br>
> >> about wbmv9.<br>
> >><br>
> >> And yet, you have no responsibility or care in letting people know that<br>
> >> they were entitled to their invoices without requesting them and you<br>
> >> transfer that responsibility to the hostel as well as the participants<br>
> >> under the excuse that they forgot. Really ?<br>
> >><br>
> >> If you were interested in being transparent why did you not inform<br>
> >> everyone during and right after wbmv9 event about the invoices the same<br>
> >> way you did when it was time to pay ?<br>
> >> How come you only take responsibility to make sure the hostels receive<br>
> >> money but it is OUR fault (the participants) that it did not received<br>
> >> the receipts/invoices ?<br>
> >><br>
> >> Everyday you were giving meal tickets an calling everyone for shirts.<br>
> >> Yet it takes over 2 months to tell us that we forgot to ask for<br>
> >> something that has to be provided by law without being requested ?<br>
> >><br>
> >> The only reason you don't see anyone responsible is because you lack<br>
> >> mirrors around you. You are responsible for more than this. Give it some<br>
> >> time, and you will be notified of more.<br>
> >><br>
> >> - The real problem is transparency in your actions and we both know what<br>
> >> I am talking about. In fact a few other people also know even before<br>
> >> wbmv9 was started in regards to a few possible things that could happen<br>
> >> in this event. The more you talk the better it is. There are people<br>
> >> reading this email without any surprise.<br>
> >><br>
> >> - You claim that Portuguese business are in order with the portuguese<br>
> >> tax system. Are you their accountant ? I would be cautious about that<br>
> >> statement 'mister 100% certainty'.<br>
> >><br>
> >> - You do not see the point of this discussion because it is not<br>
> >> favourable to you. Why would you ? Really ?<br>
> >> The hostels took care of the process alone ? You had no role in the<br>
> >> events and payments ? Is that it ? Now you have nothing to do with the<br>
> >> event after it is done when you are asked about things by other people.<br>
> >><br>
> >> - What makes sense to you or Inesc and or hostels has no weight in a<br>
> >> court of law. Your personal opinion has no relevance to lawyers, judges<br>
> >> and or courts. Would like to debate that ?<br>
> >><br>
> >> - Have some INTEGRITY that you did not have during with events with some<br>
> >> people and don't discard yourself for your role and responsibilities<br>
> >> with the organization of wbmv9 and try not to transfer the consequences<br>
> >> of your actions to other people and leave participants in the dark.<br>
> >><br>
> >> If anyone did not get their invoices, you have enough contacts<br>
> >> information to get that solved without making the participants<br>
> >> themselves having to waste their time to get this solved.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Participants do not need to ask for the invoices. They must be provided<br>
> >> and not 2 months later when someone else found a problem somewhere.<br>
> >> Get it done like you did to ask us for money and get everyone else<br>
> >> provided with invoices in a secure way. Most of the participants are<br>
> >> outside Portugal, travel often and or may not be able to take care of<br>
> >> this.<br>
> >> At a very minimum you have ethical responsibilities here to clear all<br>
> >> this if you want to ignore the rest.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Get it taken care of responsibly or a could phone calls can squeeze some<br>
> >> people to get it done.<br>
> >><br>
> >> - You were not the only one working really hard for the event! But YOU<br>
> >> sure worked also REALLY hard to shade someone else that did also worked<br>
> >> really hard for it and have all the credit for YOUR personal career<br>
> >> profit.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Also note that my questions to you are rhetorical. Use some of that<br>
> >> academic knowledge to understand it if nothing else.<br>
> >><br>
> >> You look like a grown man. Act accordingly. There are many people<br>
> >> reading this. You have responsibility and you took it from day one when<br>
> >> you decided to participate in the wbmv9 event.<br>
> >><br>
> >> On 07/19/2016 04:19 PM, Filipe Borges Teixeira wrote:<br>
> >>> Hi,<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> 2016-07-19 20:32 GMT+01:00 cmsv <<a href="mailto:cmsv@wirelesspt.net" target="_blank">cmsv@wirelesspt.net</a>>:<br>
> >>>> Under Portuguese law, no one needs to request an invoice/receipt upon<br>
> >>>> buying goods or receive services.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Mr Teixeira (local organization team & hostel) are obligated to provide<br>
> >>>> that, WITHOUT being requested. We, who paid for it should have been<br>
> >>>> provided immediately with the invoices/receipts.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> The reason why Mr Teixeira is now being 'squeezed'/asked about this and<br>
> >>>> emailing the list is also the same reason that he will be asked about a<br>
> >>>> few other things that he did due to lack of ethics and was author of.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> They had lot of time to take care of some things they caused. And this<br>
> >>>> email is no coincidence regarding wmbv6 events. They have been silent<br>
> >>>> for over 2 months until some else brought wbmv9 to the mailing list<br>
> >>>> today.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> He did not misunderstand me. He purposely tried to pretend he was not<br>
> >>>> responsible and making look like I was blaming other people and<br>
> >>>> there is<br>
> >>>> more to this story.<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Government info:<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> <a href="http://info.portaldasfinancas.gov.pt/pt/informacao_fiscal/codigos_tribu" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://info.portaldasfinancas.gov.pt/pt/informacao_fiscal/codigos_tribu</a><br>
> >>>> tarios/civa_rep/iva29.htm<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Translation:<br>
> >>>> b) issue an invoice must for every transfer of goods or services as are<br>
> >>>> set out in Articles 3 and 4, regardless of the quality of the buyer of<br>
> >>>> goods or recipient of services, even if they do not request it, as well<br>
> >>>> as the payments made ​​to them before the date of transfer of goods<br>
or<br>
> >>>> the provision of services; (DL Drafting No. 197/2012, of 24 August,<br>
> >>>> with<br>
> >>>> entry into force on January 1, 2013)<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> I read your statements twice, and I do not see what the real problem is<br>
> >>> here. If you do not have your invoice I can ask the hostel and make sure<br>
> >>> that it is sent to your e-mail.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> I do not feel squeezed, I just do not see the point in having this<br>
> >>> discussion, specially here. If you have any other doubts or question<br>
> >>> about<br>
> >>> the billing process for the accommodation package or about the<br>
> >>> Portuguese<br>
> >>> law I can get you in touch with the hostel manager: they were the<br>
> >>> ones who<br>
> >>> took care of the process. It would make no sense for INESC to bill for<br>
> >>> rooms and breakfast.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Here at INESC we took care of sponsorship money and all other expenses,<br>
> >>> including travel grants, promotion, t-shirts, food supply and social<br>
> >>> events<br>
> >>> and we worked really hard to make everything free/as cheap as<br>
> >>> possible, and<br>
> >>> still have some money left for v10. If you want more details about that<br>
> >>> process I can get you in contact with our accounting staff.<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Best Regards,<br>
> >>> Filipe Teixeira<br>
> >>><br>
> >>>> <a href="http://www.megamaior.pt/site/upload/files/OTOC20130121.pdf" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.megamaior.pt/site/upload/files/OTOC20130121.pdf</a><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> Quote without translation extracted from the pdf:<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> "Obrigatoriedade de emissão de faturas<br>
> >>>> (entrada em vigor a 1 de janeiro de 2013)<br>
> >>>> A emissão de fatura passará a ser obrigatória para todas as<br>
> >>>> transmissões<br>
> >>>> de bens e presta<br>
> >>>> -<br>
> >>>> ções de serviços, independentemente da qualidade do adquirente dos<br>
bens<br>
> >>>> ou destinatário<br>
> >>>> dos serviços e ainda que estes não a solicitem, qualquer<br>
que<br>
> >>>> seja o setor de atividade em<br>
> >>>> causa (alÃnea b) do nº 1 do artigo 29º do CIVA)"<br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> On 07/19/2016 03:08 PM, Linus Lüssing wrote:<br>
> >>>>> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 02:40:38PM -0400, cmsv wrote:<br>
> >>>>>> quote:<br>
> >>>>>> "There was plenty of time since the battlemesh until now for<br>
> >>>>>> responsible<br>
> >>>>>> people to take care of that were they ever interested in doing so and<br>
> >>>>>> making it available."<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> Local organization team was/is responsible for making it available.<br>
> >>>>>><br>
> >>>>>> Do NOT EVER AGAIN twist my words.<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> I don't think Filipe did that on purpose. I had to read the<br>
> >>>>> sentence you quoted + context twice, too.<br>
> >>>>><br>
> >>>>> Regards, Linus<br>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>>> Battlemesh mailing list<br>
> >>>>> <a href="mailto:Battlemesh@ml.ninux.org" target="_blank">Battlemesh@ml.ninux.org</a><br>
> >>>>> <a href="http://ml.ninux.org/mailman/listinfo/battlemesh" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ml.ninux.org/mailman/listinfo/battlemesh</a><br>
> >>>><br>
> >>>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>>> Battlemesh mailing list<br>
> >>>> <a href="mailto:Battlemesh@ml.ninux.org" target="_blank">Battlemesh@ml.ninux.org</a><br>
> >>>> <a href="http://ml.ninux.org/mailman/listinfo/battlemesh" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ml.ninux.org/mailman/listinfo/battlemesh</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>> Battlemesh mailing list<br>
> >>> <a href="mailto:Battlemesh@ml.ninux.org" target="_blank">Battlemesh@ml.ninux.org</a><br>
> >>> <a href="http://ml.ninux.org/mailman/listinfo/battlemesh" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ml.ninux.org/mailman/listinfo/battlemesh</a><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>><br>
> >>> _______________________________________________<br>
> >>> Battlemesh mailing list<br>
> >>> <a href="mailto:Battlemesh@ml.ninux.org" target="_blank">Battlemesh@ml.ninux.org</a><br>
> >>> <a href="http://ml.ninux.org/mailman/listinfo/battlemesh" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ml.ninux.org/mailman/listinfo/battlemesh</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
Battlemesh mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Battlemesh@ml.ninux.org" target="_blank">Battlemesh@ml.ninux.org</a><br>
<a href="http://ml.ninux.org/mailman/listinfo/battlemesh" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://ml.ninux.org/mailman/listinfo/battlemesh</a><br>
</blockquote></div>